Episode 142 · Enterprise · 61 min

Legacy is a revenue problem, not a cleanup job

Apexon's CEO argues the C-suite's hard question was never which shiny technology to buy — it is that a mainframe-era core quietly costs the business new features, new partners and new revenue. His proof: a credit-scoring fintech that had already sold the bank and still waited two to three quarters for real dollars, because nobody could get its model talking to a Hogan-era loan system. Agentic AI is now landing on exactly that estate, and the same arithmetic applies.

SC
Sriniketh Chakravarthi
CEO, Apexon · with Vishal Krishna
Legacy is a revenue problem, not a cleanup job — episode thumbnail
1:00:31
Said in this episode
▶ 16:14
2–3 quarters
Wait before a fintech's licence became revenue
The time a US bank took to make a credit-modelling product work with its loan origination, portfolio management and Hogan-era core — against a target of roughly 30 days after re-architecting.
▶ 30:56
15–16%
US healthcare spend as a share of GDP
Described on air as probably the highest of any developed country, and rising faster than GDP — while life-expectancy and other outcome measures fail to mirror the spend.
▶ 37:35
5 into 1
Entrepreneur-built companies merged into Apexon
About five founder-led firms spanning engineering, data and analytics, commerce and experience, brought together under Goldman Sachs and Everstone ownership.
▶ 44:55
12–18 months
Time to the first bulk of integration
His own assessment of when the merger work was mostly done — with the caveat that in each of the five charter areas the company considers itself still transforming.
▶ 46:58
6–7 levels
The entire Apexon org chart
Deliberately crunched down, unlike the big services organisations, to support an offer of depth rather than a promotion every two years.
▶ 51:07
70%
Share of the company based in India
Roughly 70% of Apexon's people sit in India; the host separately puts the India organisation at about 6,000 members, a figure the captions do not let us pin to India alone.
The brief

The argument in sixty seconds

Chakravarthi's claim is that the enterprise buying problem has inverted: there is no shortage of good technology, only an impossible fitting problem. Product categories keep colliding — this year's product becomes next year's feature inside somebody else's platform — while underneath, an estate old enough to have mainframes in it stops the business from shipping a feature or plugging in a fintech. He tells it through a credit-model company that had already sold US banks: two or three quarters passed before real dollars arrived, because the product had to be taught to talk to loan origination, portfolio management and a Hogan-era core, and Apexon's job was to find the architecture that crunched that toward thirty days. The budget has moved with the problem — five-to-seven-year run contracts giving way to two- and three-year transformation builds, funded by squeezing a run spend that tooling has already automated — and agents now arrive on top of a stack bought in 2020 and change-managed at great cost. His warning to buyers: SaaS vendors ship to the lowest common denominator, so a niche need sits at the back of the bus, and the real choice is wait, build alongside, or build it yourself. Apexon is the same story seen from the inside — five founder-led companies merged under Goldman Sachs and Everstone, the first bulk of integration done in twelve to eighteen months, flattened to six or seven levels, with the industry's promote-every-two-years reflex deliberately broken. On AI he refuses both pulpits: we overestimate the short run and underestimate the long one, which is precisely why he wants engineers deep rather than promoted.

Worth your time if you are

CIOs deciding what to buy, what to keep and what to retire
Fintech and health-tech founders selling into legacy institutions
Services leaders integrating acquired companies into one brand
Mid-career managers who lost their technical edge
Engineering students weighing GCCs, startups and services firms
Episode map

Where the conversation travels

Every block is a chapter, coloured by what it's about. Click any of it to jump straight to that minute on YouTube.

01Cold open: engineering, data, experience 0:00 Apexon is introduced as a nicely kept secret — a services firm built on engineering, data and experience — and its CEO lays out the three ingredients it brings to a problem: deep technology understanding, the business context to know which technology is actually relevant, and pre-built accelerators and IP that move a client from A to B faster. 02The cloud and data under a ten-minute order 4:20 Using a food-delivery order placed from JP Nagar as the worked example, he separates the layers — cloud as compute, tooling, security and metering that keeps the app always on, and data as the restaurant, customer and payment history that makes the experience feel personal. 03What a CIO actually has to buy 10:15 On the supply side, product categories overlap and today's product becomes tomorrow's feature — security alone spans perimeter, network and application — so the buyer either assembles best-of-breed and makes it interoperate or buys a bundle and accepts the trade-offs. 04The fintech stuck behind the firewall 13:05 The demand side is worse: legacy systems block new features and new partnerships, budgets are finite, and a credit-model fintech that had already sold US banks waited two or three quarters for revenue while its product was wired into loan origination and a Hogan-era core. 05Why a services firm builds IP, not products 17:45 Apexon deliberately stays out of the product business — services organisations manage products badly, he says — and builds accelerators instead, aimed at time to market, at collapsing layers of complexity, or at functionality the packaged product does not ship. 06Run versus change, and where the money went 19:20 The old five-to-seven-year contracts were run deals; the new money is in two- and three-year transformation builds, like integrating the payment systems of four or five acquisitions, funded by squeezing a run spend that automated tooling has already shrunk. 07Agents land on the stack you bought in 2020 23:45 Millions have already been spent on SaaS and the change management around it, so agents get built on top or embedded by the platform vendors — but those vendors ship to the lowest common denominator, leaving niche needs at the back of the bus and the buyer choosing between waiting, building alongside, or building alone. 08Life sciences: crunching the drug clock 26:40 The multi-billion-dollar question in clinical work is the rising cost and length of drug development, and the answer is data — clean, analysable and regulator-proof — alongside protein and microbiome mapping that points toward highly directed, near-personalised therapies. 0916% of GDP, outcomes that don't follow 30:10 Payers, providers, revenue-cycle managers, PBMs and third-party administrators add up to US healthcare spending around 15 to 16% of GDP and rising faster than GDP without matching life-expectancy gains, so the work goes into member experience, clinician productivity and reading eligibility rules out of hundred-page documents. 10Digital twins and an EV charger with no ERP 34:10 Manufacturing 4.0 means IoT-instrumented factories, robotics and digital twins used to design and to train service engineers — and in a newer segment, a commercial EV-charging company with no technology department and no off-the-shelf ERP had its software architected on a whiteboard from the ground up. 11Five companies, one thing to stand for 37:25 Apexon is a merger of about five entrepreneur-built firms — engineering, data and analytics, commerce, experience — backed by Goldman Sachs and Everstone, and the CEO's first task was positioning: three technology bets, a short list of regulated verticals, and two founder transitions handled without pretending to be something the company was not. 12The rest of the charter: team, model, backbone 41:40 Change had to be explained rather than imposed, cultural values were drawn from the five founding companies, a management team that could scale was recruited, the firm verticalised with service lines behind it, and back-office systems were rebuilt — the first bulk of it inside twelve to eighteen months. 13Six levels, and no promotion clock 45:10 The structure was crunched to six or seven levels and the industry's promote-every-two-years habit refused; the offer to employees is depth, training and market-readiness rather than a title, inside a deliberately accessible culture where the CEO does not only talk through his directs. 14The CEO seat, private-equity style 49:20 Moving from an IT services role to the CEO chair meant marketing, legal, HR and delivery at once, under private-equity owners he describes as no-frills and basics-focused — behave like a huge startup with real capital behind it, and stop measuring yourself by headcount when nobody knows what a bot will do next year. 15Raw talent, and managers who drifted 51:35 About 70% of the company sits in India, where graduates arrive as genuinely raw talent needing grooming, while mid-level people from large captives and system integrators have often become general managers without a deep technical anchor — and the smarter ones come looking for a way back to the roots. 16Overestimate the short run, underestimate the long 54:10 He dates the pattern to the web 1.0 hype of 2000, expects both job losses and new jobs, tells colleges to teach thinking rather than industry-readiness, and closes on reading — Rand, Kafka, twenty-four years of The Economist, and a year swapped from OTT to thirteen or fourteen books.
Takeaways

Ideas to carry out of this hour

01

The buying problem is fit at the top and legacy at the bottom

On the supply side, the CIO faces overlapping categories where this year's product becomes next year's feature — security alone now spans perimeter, network and application, with vendors steadily converging them — so the choice is best-of-breed plus integration work, or a bundle plus trade-offs. On the demand side, the business is asking for AI, gen AI and cloud while mainframes and other old estates actively prevent it from adding features or partnering with a fintech. Put finite dollars alongside a legacy estate that still has to be maintained and the engagement naturally starts as consulting: get the data strategy right, mark what is legacy, lay out a road map, then implement it.

02

A signed licence is not revenue until it clears the firewall

A credit-modelling company had already sold US banks on scores built from alternate data. But the bank needed two or three quarters to make that product talk to loan origination, portfolio management and a Hogan-era core before real dollars moved — and fintechs, fluent in the shiny new world, rarely know what lives behind a large institution's firewall. Apexon's contribution was architectural options — build differently, partner, or repackage — to compress that consumption window toward thirty days, which is a revenue-realisation fix wearing an integration project's clothes.

03

The budget moved from run to change, and the contract changed shape

The five-to-seven-year deals of the old era were run deals: run the data centre, the back office, the applications. CIOs have spent years squeezing that run spend — infrastructure monitoring was a big service a decade ago and has largely been automated away — precisely so they can push dollars into change. What replaces the long run contract is often a pure build: a bank that acquired four or five companies and never integrated their payment systems is a three-year transformation deal, not an outsourcing one.

04

Your SaaS vendor optimises for the median customer

Agentic AI is landing on estates bought around 2020 and change-managed at real cost, so the realistic paths are agents built on top of what exists or agent features shipped by the incumbent platforms — Salesforce and the other big names are not sitting quiet. But vendors push the updates most clients are asking for, because that is where the bang for the buck is, which leaves a niche requirement sitting at the back of the bus for what he estimates can be years. The live choice for the buyer is to wait for the roadmap, build alongside the vendor, or build it yourself.

05

US healthcare's problem is spend outrunning outcomes

Healthcare is around 15 to 16% of US GDP and rising faster than GDP, yet chart after chart of life expectancy and other measures shows the dollars are not translating into outcomes — with payers, providers, revenue-cycle managers, pharmacy benefit managers and third-party administrators all standing in the chain. He is explicit that technology is no panacea. The wins he points at are unglamorous: surfacing eligibility and pre-authorisation rules buried in hundreds of pages of policy documents, and pulling scarce clinician time back from administrative work toward patients.

06

Merging five founder-led firms is a positioning job first

Apexon is roughly five entrepreneur-built companies — engineering, data and analytics, commerce, experience — merged under Goldman Sachs and Everstone, and the CEO's charter had five parts, starting with deciding what the combined whole stands for: three technology bets and a short list of regulated verticals rather than everything. The rest was a management team that could scale, a verticalised operating model with service lines and a delivery organisation behind it, one brand narrative out of five positionings, and back-office systems to carry the operating rhythm. Culture was drawn from the founders' own values rather than imposed, and the first bulk of integration took twelve to eighteen months.

07

Kill the two-year promotion clock and hire for depth

He argues the industry's own success bred an entitlement — promote me every two years — even when the work, the impact and the maturity had not changed, so Apexon flattened to six or seven levels and made a different offer: investment, depth and market-readiness instead of a title. Headcount as a scoreboard is over too, in his telling, because nobody knows which parts of the work a bot will take; what a services firm should chase is high-calibre people who can work alongside agents. The same logic runs into hiring, where he is unimpressed by having managed 500 people and asks instead what your technology chops are and how hands-on you can be.

The numbers, drawn

What the episode measures

Every figure below was said on air — timestamps included, caveats kept.

Conversation share

portion of the hour spent on each theme
SaaS & enterprise · 24%Leadership & org · 18%Data & digitisation · 14%AI & machine learning · 13%Healthcare · 12%Hiring & talent · 10%
SaaS & enterprise24%
Leadership & org18%
Data & digitisation14%
AI & machine learning13%
Healthcare12%
Hiring & talent10%
Computed from the chapter map of this episode.

How long a bank takes to consume a fintech product

months
Today — integration 7.5Target after re-arch1
As stated in conversation: two to three quarters before real dollars reach the fintech, plotted here at the midpoint of about 7.5 months, against his stated target of 'maybe 30 days' once the product is re-architected for the bank's core systems.▶ 17:29
Worth keeping

Lines that stay

Remember, the SaaS vendors will also go by the lowest common denominator — they push out the updates most clients are asking for. If you have a very niche need, chances are you're somewhere in the back of the bus.

— Sriniketh Chakravarthi ▶ 25:47

Your work did not change, your impact did not change, your maturity did not change — but you had to promote people in two years, because otherwise they would get upset.

— Sriniketh Chakravarthi ▶ 47:12

Today it's not really about the number of people — guess what, we don't know what parts are going to be done by a bot soon. It's about impact.

— Sriniketh Chakravarthi ▶ 50:50

Every time I look at a change like this I'm reminded that we tend to overestimate the impact of something in the short run, and underestimate the impact of something in the long run.

— Sriniketh Chakravarthi ▶ 54:53

Industry keeps saying it wants industry-ready people. The whole point of education is to have them grounded in their basics and get them to think — I'd much rather have a problem solver over a lifetime.

— Sriniketh Chakravarthi ▶ 56:09
Clips that travel

Short on time? Start here

Fintech founders selling into large institutions

The fintech stuck behind the bank's firewall

A concrete failure mode: the licence is signed, and two or three quarters of core-banking integration stand between it and revenue.

15:00 → 17:45 · 3 min ▶ Watch clip
CIOs defending a transformation budget

Run versus change, and where the money moved

Why the five-to-seven-year run contract is being replaced by two- and three-year builds, and how automation freed the money to pay for them.

20:25 → 23:45 · 3 min ▶ Watch clip
Enterprise buyers reading their vendor's roadmap

When agents land on the stack you already bought

The lowest-common-denominator problem — and the three real options when your niche need sits at the back of the vendor's queue.

24:00 → 26:40 · 3 min ▶ Watch clip
Healthcare operators and health-tech founders

16% of GDP, and outcomes that don't follow

The spend-versus-outcomes gap, the cast of intermediaries behind it, and the unglamorous places AI actually helps.

30:41 → 34:10 · 3 min ▶ Watch clip
Services leaders redesigning career ladders

No promotion clock, no headcount scoreboard

Six or seven levels, an explicit refusal of the two-year promotion habit, and why headcount stops being the metric when bots do part of the work.

46:41 → 51:07 · 4 min ▶ Watch clip
Glossary

The jargon, unpacked

Run versus change
The split of an IT budget between keeping existing systems and operations alive (run) and building or modernising something new (change) — the balance every CIO in this conversation is trying to shift.
Accelerators and IP (in services)
Reusable frameworks, tooling and pre-built components a services firm brings to a project to cut time to market or hide layers of complexity — Apexon's third ingredient, deliberately not sold as a product.
Core banking system
The system of record that runs accounts, loans and transactions inside a bank; Hogan, named on air, is a mainframe-era example that new products must be integrated with before they can go live.
Legacy estate / technical debt
The accumulated older systems a large institution still depends on — sometimes retained deliberately, with only the data exposed through APIs to the newer world.
Pre-authorisation
The US insurer's sign-off required before a treatment is covered, with eligibility rules buried in hundreds of pages of policy documents — one of the language-heavy tasks he expects AI to simplify.
RCM and PBMs
Revenue cycle management companies handle billing and collections between providers and payers; pharmacy benefit managers sit between insurers, pharmacies and drugmakers — two of the intermediaries that make US healthcare so complex.
Digital twin
A live software replica of a physical machine, product or factory, used to design faster and to train service engineers without touching the real equipment.
Agentic AI
AI systems that carry out multi-step tasks rather than just answering — arriving here as agents built on top of existing enterprise applications, or embedded by the SaaS vendors themselves.
Connections

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Full transcript

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