Episode 89 · Enterprise · 26 min

A tool, not a revolution

Nethermind was designed on a bet that in 2017 sounded heretical: traditional finance would walk onto the chain rather than be burned by it. The claim here is that the revolution already happened when the world began representing everything digitally — blockchain is only the tool that governs it, the way cities eventually needed laws. Which is why farm-to-fork pilots keep stalling while a 200-person, 50-country engineering firm sells bridges to banks.

TS
Tomasz Stańczak
Founder & CEO, Nethermind · with Vishal Krishna
A tool, not a revolution — episode thumbnail
25:57
Said in this episode
▶ 20:36
200
People collaborating at Nethermind
A UK-based company with permanent employees plus collaborators, all-remote from the start rather than by pandemic necessity.
▶ 20:51
50
Countries the team is drawn from
Remote by design, which he says is why people hunting for a properly designed remote employer found their way to the company during the pandemic.
▶ 3:09
2017
The year the suit walked into the vaping bar
He dates his entry to a small London meet-up in 2017 — late by crypto's standards, but six years is enough to be the veteran newer arrivals want to hear from.
▶ 12:43
7 → 11-12 yrs
Fund life LPs signed up for, versus reality
Vishal's framing of the LP transparency problem, offered as a blockchain use case; the guest's answer is that this is a human trust problem, not a computational one.
▶ 19:16
99%
Share of economic activity he expects to be digital
A speculation about digital identity, wealth and reputation rather than a measurement — he commits only to 'very likely' and 'progressing very fast'.
The brief

The argument in sixty seconds

His claim is that blockchain is not a revolution at all — the revolution was the world's move to representing everything digitally, and blockchain is the governance tool that arrives afterwards, the way cities eventually needed legal systems. That reframe explains Nethermind's posture: instead of discarding traditional finance, it was built on the assumption that banks, institutions and governments would come to the chain and want engineering, research and consulting waiting for them there. Two things follow. First, the purist definition of a decentralised application — a smart contract free of any regulation — cannot carry institutional money; the design worth building is coexistence, where anyone can interact with the system while large institutional flows keep their oversight. Second, most of the use cases the industry advertises are the wrong ones: supply-chain traceability and medical records keep failing because the moment the chain has to touch the physical world someone can swap the item or peel off the tag, while assets that originate digitally can never be tampered with. He is just as blunt about the finance analogies. Asked whether an LP could finally see where a fund's money went, he says the trust problem there is human, not computational. What institutions actually arrive with is identity, reconciliation, and the dance between transparency and privacy — proving your income clears a threshold without revealing by how much. Behind the argument sits a 200-person team across 50 countries, all-remote since before the pandemic, now selling that guidance to corporates who often arrive with the most introductory question of all.

Worth your time if you are

Bank and institution teams sizing up a first tokenisation pilot
Founders whose deck still leads with supply-chain traceability
Compliance officers weighing privacy against oversight
Operators running all-remote engineering teams across time zones
Episode map

Where the conversation travels

Every block is a chapter, coloured by what it's about. Click any of it to jump straight to that minute on YouTube.

01Cold open: a suit in a vaping bar 0:00 Vishal opens on seven years of following blockchain and the arrival of practical use cases, the guest notes how student-heavy and inquisitive the Indian rooms are on his second visit, and then traces his own route — business administration and computer science, an investment banking career in London, and the 2017 evening he walked into a small vaping bar still wearing his work suit. 02Bridges, not bonfires 3:25 Nethermind was designed to bring a traditional approach — sustainable growth, high-quality engineering, research and consulting — to a field that wanted to discard traditional finance, on the bet that traditional finance would instead come to blockchain and the two worlds would innovate together. 03Convergence is unavoidable, caution is rational 5:15 Governance and much of the financial system will move on chain because everything is moving to digital space, but the popular definition of a decentralised application as a smart contract free of all regulation cannot hold institutional money — the beautiful design is the two systems coexisting. 04Two reasons a bank walks in 7:30 One motive is purely commercial — the asset is now large enough that customers will want it, so banks build custody, institutional staking and the tooling around it — and the other is genuine problem-solving, which is a different conversation entirely. 05Identity, and the transparency-privacy dance 8:48 The hard problems institutions bring are binding a public-private key pair to a person in the physical world, tracking on-chain reputation without surrendering privacy, and cleaning up the reconciliation mess in which large organisations quietly lose money for years. 06Prove the income, not the ledger 10:20 Vishal's example of a bank that sees every restaurant bill before it lends leads to selective and range disclosures — proving your monthly income is above a threshold without revealing whether it is barely above or ten times above — and to why both total privacy and total transparency carry real danger. 07The LP question blockchain can't answer 12:25 Offered the tidy use case of limited partners who cannot see why a seven-year fund has run to eleven or twelve, he declines it: tracking money rarely needs a blockchain, the trust in venture is human, and overselling cases like this is what makes newcomers doubt the technology. 08Farm to fork keeps failing 14:30 Supply-chain traceability and medical records stall because blockchain is weakest where it meets the physical world — items can be swapped and tags removed — whereas value that originates digitally, from art to certificates of ownership, binds to the chain with no way to tamper. 09The obvious use cases are wrong 16:40 He admits to his own early wrong intuitions and argues that the applications which feel most obvious at the start disappoint, while the convincing ones — how economy, collaboration and governance work in a fully digital world — only appear after months of reading, with the metaverse as today's funny-looking first draft. 10When digital wealth outgrows the physical 19:00 Digital identity, assets and reputation may account for something like 99% of economic activity in future — for some people digital wealth already exceeds the physical kind — which drags inheritance, wills and taxes into a long tail of unresolved legal questions. 11Two hundred people, fifty countries, no office 20:30 Nethermind is a UK-based company of roughly 200 collaborators drawn from 50 countries that was all-remote from the start, so the pandemic that forced everyone else to learn remote work simply sent it talent looking for a company already designed that way. 12The revenue model is guidance 21:40 A large part of revenue comes from working with protocol designers and large corporations — some arriving able to specify arbitrarily complex systems, others arriving with the very first question — and the firm is building out that guidance layer alongside management consultancies. 13Company-building replaced the strategy games 22:42 The nomad's answer to how he unwinds is that he does not: strategy games were dropped a few years ago and the same addiction now goes into designing and building the company, with friends met on the road between conferences. 14Not a revolution — laws for a digital city 23:57 Asked whether this is an industrial-revolution moment, he reframes: the revolution was representing everything digitally, and blockchain is the tool that governs it — the way people who started building cities then needed legal systems — before the two close on city-states, cyberpunk and solar punk.
Takeaways

Ideas to carry out of this hour

01

Traditional finance was never going to be discarded

Nethermind was designed, in his telling, as a deliberately unfashionable company for 2017: sustainable growth, high-quality engineering, research and consulting, built on the assumption that traditional finance would come to blockchain rather than be replaced by it. That made it a bridge business at a moment when the technology was still too small and too inefficient for large institutions to bother with. He argues the bet is now paying off, because the money involved is large enough that banks, institutions and governments have started asking what big problems it can solve.

02

The purist dApp cannot carry institutional money

Many people still define a decentralised application as a smart contract that operates on chain, free of any regulation, and believe that is the only legitimate form. He allows that this direction may matter, but insists institutions and governments are rational to be cautious: they want digitised assets and value represented in digital space without giving up oversight. The design he calls beautiful is coexistence — a space open enough that anyone can interact with the system, hardened enough to protect large institutional payments from missing oversight and from hacks.

03

Institutions arrive for two reasons, and only one is a problem

The first is commercial: the asset class is now big enough that customers will demand it, so traditional finance builds the tooling — custodian solutions, institutional staking, the business he says Twinstake does. The second is actual problem-solving, and that is where the harder questions live: binding a public-private key pair to a real-world identity, tracking reputation on chain, and untangling the reconciliation mess inside large corporations and governments that quietly loses money for years. Buyers who confuse the two procure a product when what they needed was an answer.

04

Privacy is a dance, and both extremes are dangerous

Institutions want transparency towards each other — they do business without trusting one another and need to verify what everyone is doing — while wanting privacy for their users' data and trading information; the risk is building exactly the inverse. His worked example is range disclosure: a landlord or a lender asks you to prove your monthly income clears a threshold, and cryptography lets you prove it without revealing whether you are barely above it or ten times above. Full opacity shelters illegal activity, and full transparency makes visibly wealthy people targets.

05

Blockchain does not solve the trust it cannot compute

Handed a tidy use case — limited partners who cannot see why a seven-year fund has stretched to eleven or twelve, or where their money went — he declines it. In the majority of cases you can already track where money went without a blockchain, because the trust problem in venture is human all the way down: you trust the founder, you trust the partners. At most the chain helps reconcile different systems quickly, and he warns that advertising simple cases like this is exactly what makes newcomers ask why the technology is needed at all.

06

The failure is always at the physical handoff

Supply-chain tracking, medical records and the other early favourites keep stalling because blockchain is weakest precisely where the digital world has to touch the physical one. You tag an item, but someone can replace the item or remove the tag, and the chain will record the fiction faithfully. Where value originates digitally — art and NFTs, but also a certificate of ownership issued by an authority — the binding cannot be tampered with, which is why he expects digital property to be worth more than physical property sooner or later.

07

The obvious use cases are the wrong ones

He describes his own arc and the industry's: the applications that feel most obvious at the beginning are the ones that disappoint, while the problems the technology genuinely solves only become convincing after months of getting deeper into it. What he arrives at is not a payments story or a traceability story but a governance one — how economic activity, ownership and collaboration get organised once existence is substantially digital. The metaverse looks like a joke with funny characters walking around; he treats it as the embarrassing first draft of an economy that will need consensus, cryptography and immutability underneath it.

The numbers, drawn

What the episode measures

Every figure below was said on air — timestamps included, caveats kept.

Conversation share

portion of the hour spent on each theme
Payments & fintech · 19%SaaS & enterprise · 17%Regulation & policy · 16%Data & digitisation · 12%Founder journey · 11%Supply chain & agri · 8%
Payments & fintech19%
SaaS & enterprise17%
Regulation & policy16%
Data & digitisation12%
Founder journey11%
Supply chain & agri8%
Computed from the chapter map of this episode.
Worth keeping

Lines that stay

I entered in a suit into this small vaping bar, and everyone was scared. And then they started sharing the ideas with me, and I started reading more and more. That was 2017.

— Tomasz Stańczak ▶ 2:52

If someone says prove to me that your monthly income is above this number, I can say yes, sure — here is a proof that it's above this number. But I don't have to tell you whether it's ten times above it or just above.

— Tomasz Stańczak ▶ 11:24

The question is, can you really solve tracking where the money went without blockchain? In the majority of cases, yes — because when you're a limited partner investing, the trust is everywhere. You trust the founder, you trust the partners.

— Tomasz Stańczak ▶ 13:13

I see it less as a revolution and more as a tool. The revolution was the fact that we started representing everything digitally — blockchain is what helps you to govern that.

— Tomasz Stańczak ▶ 24:22

People started creating cities, and then they needed legal systems. I see blockchain as the necessary laws for coexistence in a digital space.

— Tomasz Stańczak ▶ 24:59
Clips that travel

Short on time? Start here

Bank and institution teams sizing up a first tokenisation pilot

Why the purist dApp can't hold institutional money

The convergence argument in full, then the two very different reasons an institution actually walks in — and why oversight is a feature, not a betrayal.

5:15 → 8:48 · 4 min ▶ Watch clip
Compliance officers weighing privacy against oversight

Prove the income, not the ledger

Selective and range disclosure explained in plain language, plus the argument that total privacy and total transparency are both dangerous.

10:20 → 12:25 · 2 min ▶ Watch clip
Founders pitching blockchain as a fix for trust

The LP question blockchain can't answer

The host offers a perfect-sounding use case and the guest turns it down, explaining how oversold simple cases discredit the whole technology.

12:25 → 14:30 · 2 min ▶ Watch clip
Founders whose deck still leads with supply-chain traceability

Farm to fork fails; digital-native assets don't

The clearest statement of where blockchain breaks — the physical handoff — and where its binding genuinely cannot be tampered with.

14:30 → 16:40 · 2 min ▶ Watch clip
Anyone still arguing about whether Web3 matters

Not a revolution — the laws of a digital city

The closing reframe: blockchain as the legal system a digital society needs, from city-states to cyberpunk and solar punk.

23:57 → 25:57 · 2 min ▶ Watch clip
Glossary

The jargon, unpacked

Decentralised application (dApp)
Software whose logic runs as a smart contract on a blockchain rather than on a company's servers — often defined by purists as free of any regulation, which is the definition he argues institutions cannot work with.
Smart contract
Code deployed on a blockchain that executes automatically and identically for everyone, with no operator able to change the outcome after the fact.
Selective / range disclosure
Cryptographic proof of a fact about your data without revealing the data — for example proving your monthly income is above a landlord's threshold without revealing the actual figure.
Institutional staking
Running blockchain staking on behalf of banks, funds and other regulated institutions, with the custody and reporting they require; the guest names Twinstake as where he does this.
Custodian solution
A regulated third party that holds the private keys to a client's digital assets, so an institution never has to safeguard the keys itself.
Reconciliation
Matching the same transaction across the many separate ledgers a large organisation runs — the accounting mess he says quietly loses institutions money, and one of the few enterprise problems a shared, verifiable record genuinely fixes.
Private / permissioned blockchain
A chain run by a known, restricted set of participants; the host raises hybrid designs where outsiders can still supply consensus or verify what the insiders recorded.
Connections

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Full transcript

The whole conversation, searchable

99 segments

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