Episode 81 · Fintech · 33 min

Build for the hardest market, then sell anywhere

India's fintech story gets told through UPI and $29 billion of funding, but Afthonia Lab's founder says payments are the finished part. Her claim: the value has moved to what nobody wants to discuss — pensions, insurance, and the ₹1.25 lakh crore that sits unclaimed when Indians die without a will. And a product that survives a market this complex can be sold almost anywhere else.

TM
Tanul Mishra
Founder & CEO, Afthonia Lab · with Vishal Krishna
Build for the hardest market, then sell anywhere — episode thumbnail
32:59
Said in this episode
▶ 0:31
$29 bn
Funding into Indian fintech
Across roughly 2,000 deals, with about a 14% global market share and the number-two spot in deal volume — the host citing the BCG and Matrix Partners 'State of the Fintech Union' report.
▶ 4:34
₹1.25L cr
Assets left unclaimed when Indians die
Her figure for the unclaimed pool, with claims taking roughly 4–12 years where a will exists and 8–12 where none does — ranges she quotes on air and that run longer than most published estimates.
▶ 7:57
2,000 → 9
Founders screened, founders incubated
Afthonia has spoken to about 2,000 founders and incubated around nine over three years, onboarding through the year as a rolling cohort rather than in fixed batches.
▶ 8:42
₹150 cr+
Claims processed by one portfolio startup
Its succession-management company moved over ₹150 crore in claims in a single year — the clearest evidence she offers that the unclaimed-assets problem is addressable.
▶ 17:51
43,000
Users on a teen money app, on light spend
A portfolio startup teaching teenagers to earn and spend has 43,000 users — a mix of teens and parents — plus 240-plus companies, without heavy marketing.
▶ 25:05
70–80%
LIC's share of the Indian insurance market
Her estimate of the incumbent's dominance, with every other player splitting what is left — the asymmetry behind her claim that insurance is where banking was a few years ago.
The brief

The argument in sixty seconds

Mishra's claim is that Indian fintech has mistaken a solved problem for the whole problem. Payments were the ecosystem's blue-eyed child and are, in her reading, essentially set; the value now sits in the categories nobody wants to discuss — pensions in an economy where salaries lag inflation, insurance still sold like a fire extinguisher, and succession, where she puts ₹1.25 lakh crore unclaimed because Indians die without wills and claims then run for years. She prefers 'under-financed' to 'underbanked' precisely because the gap is no longer a bank account. Afthonia Lab is her answer to a structural complaint: the US and China count thousands of specialised incubators while India, third in the world by startup count, had a few hundred, almost all institute- or government-backed. So she built a fintech-only programme — rolling cohorts instead of batches, roughly 2,000 founders screened down to nine incubated, single-digit equity that the founders themselves price — on the premise that fintech is too regulated and too capital-hungry to learn by trial and error. Underneath sits the export thesis: a product built for India's diversity travels, and Indian teams should stop treating the global market as a later chapter. The stakes are timing. She thinks early-stage capital gets more responsible rather than disappears, that the crazy valuations are gone for good reason, and that insurance today is exactly where banking was a few years ago.

Worth your time if you are

Fintech founders who still think payments are the opportunity
Early-stage founders weighing what an incubator's equity ask is worth
Insurtech and pension builders hunting an unserved segment
Indian operators deciding whether to go global now or later
Angels sizing early-stage fintech through a funding winter
Episode map

Where the conversation travels

Every block is a chapter, coloured by what it's about. Click any of it to jump straight to that minute on YouTube.

01Cold open: $29 billion, 2,000 deals 0:00 Vishal opens on the BCG–Matrix numbers for Indian fintech before Mishra reframes the sector as anything but linear — a spectrum running from micropensions in Bangladesh to ESG in fintech, with India still near the start of it. 02Under-financed, not underbanked 3:20 Payments have taken hold, so the open ground is insurance, blockchain, pensions and succession — where she says ₹1.25 lakh crore lies unclaimed and claims can run for years. 03Afthonia means limitless 5:06 After a food startup taught her how thin an Indian founder's network really is, she mapped India's few hundred mostly institute-backed incubators against thousands of specialised ones in the US and China — and built the missing one for fintech. 042,000 founders, nine incubated 7:10 The programme runs as a rolling cohort with heavy screening — around 2,000 founder conversations to nine incubations — built on a per-startup blueprint for market, mentors, knowledge and capital. 05What COVID accelerated in the portfolio 8:40 Lockdown pulled forward succession management, where one portfolio company processed over ₹150 crore in claims in a year, and teen financial literacy — and the next phase targets 15 to 20 more startups in insurance, blockchain and tier-two and tier-three solutions. 06Let the founder name the equity 10:24 Afthonia takes single-digit equity but refuses to quote a number, asking founders what they want to share — a test of objectivity as much as a way to get skin in the game from day one. 07Fintech to food and back again 11:55 Her 2012 food brand went B2C to B2B across 32 modern-retail outlets in an era when a payment gateway meant an integration fee — so the website simply told customers to pay by NEFT. 08Raising money is where trouble starts 14:10 She chose fintech because it is complex, regulated and capex- and opex-heavy — the place founders most need a sounding board — and names her own worst mistake as not taking brand communication seriously enough. 09Spray, pray, or ask the growth mentor 16:30 Against post-raise spending sprees she sets the mix of traditional and digital channels, and a portfolio startup sitting on 43,000 users and 240-plus companies without heavy ad spend. 10The goldsmith invented buy-now-pay-later 18:30 India ran BNPL and save-now-pay-later for generations through jewellery instalments and monthly savings schemes, so the real question is checks and balances, not novelty. 11Tier three, crypto, and the generation skip 19:59 Solutions built for the urban metro have to move to tier-two and tier-three India — agri plus finance, a digitised Kisan Credit Card — while crypto needs guardrails for a population she calls vulnerable, even as India keeps skipping generations of technology. 12The regulator is why the market opened 22:34 Unregulated space is ripe for innovation and regulators step in once innovation arrives — slow to founders, but the same mechanism that took India from no landlines to universal mobile. 13Build here, sell anywhere 24:05 One portfolio company was global-first from day one, and she argues Indian teams should chase global markets more aggressively because product thinking forged in a complex market travels well. 14Insurance is where banking was 25:05 LIC's dominance, a society averse to discussing insurance, a post-COVID reality check and usage-based pricing make insurtech her favourite category — with rural fintech, NABARD's work and the payments-bank rails close behind. 15The next 18 months, funding winter and all 27:36 More startups, more angels globally, and a contrarian read on the downturn — early-stage money gets more responsible and asks tougher questions rather than drying up, while the same dollar buys more of an Indian cap table. 16Trekking, ancient India, and not giving up 29:10 Martial arts and trekking as training in refusing to quit, a book on how India's historical contradictions still shape its society, and a closing instruction to wake up thinking about whose life you will change today.
Takeaways

Ideas to carry out of this hour

01

The word is under-financed, not underbanked

Payments have taken hold and became the ecosystem's blue-eyed child, which she treats as the finished chapter rather than the story. What is left is insurance, blockchain, pensions and longevity finance — and she deliberately avoids 'underbanked' because the missing thing is no longer a bank account. Fintech, in her framing, is not a linear line but a spectrum that runs from micropensions in Bangladesh to ESG products, and India sits near the beginning of it.

02

₹1.25 lakh crore is stuck behind a missing will

Her number for assets lying unclaimed in India when someone dies is ₹1.25 lakh crore, and the reason is procedural rather than financial: she puts the claim process at roughly four to twelve years with a will and eight to twelve without, which is most people. That is why succession management is one of her favourite categories — one portfolio company processed over ₹150 crore in claims in a single year. The lesson she draws is not about scale but about need: small innovations in spaces that make life simpler.

03

India's incubator deficit is why Afthonia exists

Founders need people, capital, knowledge and network access, and an Indian founder's own network runs out fast. Mapped against the US and China — thousands of specialised incubators between them, one American cluster devoted just to insurance — India ranks third in the world by startup count but had only a few hundred incubators at last count, and very few were private and independent. Afthonia is her attempt at the missing piece for the one sector she considers too regulated and too capital-hungry to navigate alone.

04

Let the founder price the equity

Afthonia takes single-digit equity but never opens with a number — it asks founders what they are willing to share. Her reasoning comes from having been a founder herself: equity is the only thing you have to give at that stage, so how you offer it reveals your objectivity, and being asked rather than told builds trust in the founding team. The point is skin in the game from day one, so the programme only makes money when the startups do.

05

Raising money is where the difficulty starts

Most founders believe the raise is the win; she argues it is the moment the real work begins, because deploying capital without compromising growth is the harder discipline. Her list of common mistakes is unglamorous — not talking enough about what you are building, not asking for help, and over-indexing on investment rounds instead of the business. Her own version was brand communication: she thinks her food company would have exited faster had she put herself out there sooner.

06

Ask what you need before you buy visibility

The post-raise reflex is to spray and pray across hiring, marketing and PR because everyone else is advertising. Her counter-question is diagnostic: do you need visibility, do you need sales, or do you need leads — and only then decide the spend. Afthonia keeps 'growth mentors' from sales and marketing backgrounds on hand for exactly this, and points to a portfolio startup sitting on 43,000 users and 240-plus companies without spending heavily.

07

India has run buy-now-pay-later for generations

Long before the category had a name, Indians bought jewellery from goldsmiths in instalments, and organised jewellers ran monthly savings schemes redeemable for jewellery a year later — BNPL and save-now-pay-later in everything but branding. So the innovation is not the mechanic, it is extending credit to people traditional financial metrics reject. Her condition is checks and balances: it cannot become a tool to flatter the books while the customer suffers, because businesses grow on happy customers.

08

Complexity at home is the export advantage

Her founding conviction is that a product built for a nation this diverse and complex can be taken almost anywhere in the world. She applies it unevenly by category — US insurance is saturated, so an insurtech is better off going after tier-two and tier-three India — but her overall call is that Indian startups should chase global markets more aggressively, because the way Indian teams think about product and solutions is deeper and more complex, which makes selling abroad easier rather than harder.

The numbers, drawn

What the episode measures

Every figure below was said on air — timestamps included, caveats kept.

Conversation share

portion of the hour spent on each theme
Payments & fintech · 24%Venture capital · 14%Founder journey · 12%Insurance · 12%India macro · 10%Consumer India · 10%
Payments & fintech24%
Venture capital14%
Founder journey12%
Insurance12%
India macro10%
Consumer India10%
Computed from the chapter map of this episode.

The incubator gap she built Afthonia into

specialised incubators
United States2,500China1,500India500
As stated in conversation: '2,500 plus and 1,500 plus' specialised incubators when she maps India against the US and China, against India's 'about 500 plus' at last count — mostly institute- or government-backed. All three are lower bounds she quotes from memory; the US and China figures are given as a pair, so the split between them is inferred from her ordering.▶ 6:22
Worth keeping

Lines that stay

I'm using the word under-financed and not underbanked — because you've got insurance, you've got pensions, you've got longevity finance. There is so much we've still got going for us.

— Tanul Mishra ▶ 2:32

When you build in India, with such a diverse and complex nation, you can almost take your product anywhere in the world.

— Tanul Mishra ▶ 3:20

Most founders believe that you succeed when you raise money. But that's actually when your troubles start.

— Tanul Mishra ▶ 14:26

Because you're a startup, and because everyone else is advertising, you want that visibility. But the question to ask is: do you need visibility, do you need sales, do you need leads? Then you decide your spends.

— Tanul Mishra ▶ 18:14

I love insurtech because insurance is where banking was a couple of years ago. As a society we've been averse to talking about insurance — it's like selling a fire extinguisher.

— Tanul Mishra ▶ 25:05
Clips that travel

Short on time? Start here

Founders hunting an unserved fintech category

The ₹1.25 lakh crore nobody claims

Her fastest sweep of the open ground — insurance, pensions, succession — and the unclaimed-assets number that anchors the whole episode.

3:35 → 5:20 · 2 min ▶ Watch clip
Early-stage founders evaluating incubators

Why India needed a fintech-only incubator

The incubator-deficit argument in full, plus how the rolling cohort and screening actually work: 2,000 conversations, nine incubations.

5:51 → 8:40 · 3 min ▶ Watch clip
First-time founders about to close a round

Raising money is where trouble starts

Why she picked the hardest sector, and the mistakes list — including the brand-communication failure she thinks cost her a faster exit.

14:10 → 16:30 · 2 min ▶ Watch clip
Credit and crypto product builders

The goldsmith invented BNPL

India's informal instalment economy reframed as buy-now-pay-later, then the same checks-and-balances test applied to crypto and a vulnerable user base.

18:30 → 21:30 · 3 min ▶ Watch clip
Indian operators weighing a global launch

Go global, and go after insurance

The export thesis stated plainly, followed by the insurtech case: LIC's dominance, post-COVID awareness, and usage-based premiums.

24:05 → 26:08 · 2 min ▶ Watch clip
Glossary

The jargon, unpacked

Under-financed
Mishra's preferred term over 'underbanked' — the gap for most Indians is no longer a bank account but the missing insurance, pension and longevity products around it.
Rolling cohort
An incubator that onboards startups continuously through the year against a per-company blueprint, rather than running fixed batches with a demo day at the end.
Succession management
The business of getting a dead person's financial assets to their heirs — in India slowed by missing wills and claim processes she says run for years.
Buy now, pay later
Short-term credit offered at the point of purchase; she argues India ran it informally for generations through goldsmiths' instalment and monthly savings schemes.
Kisan Credit Card
The state-backed revolving credit line for farmers, which she describes digitising with NABARD over SMS and IVR during her years in the payments industry.
Regulatory sandbox
A supervised space where a fintech can test a product on real customers before full rules exist — the RBI mechanism the host raises when asking about regulation.
Insurtech
Technology-led insurance distribution, pricing and underwriting — her favourite category, including usage-based premiums that charge a light rider less than a heavy one.
Longevity finance
Products for the decades after working life, which she flags as unserved in an economy where salaries trail inflation, lifespans rise, and almost nobody holds a pension plan.
Connections

If this resonated, go here next

Full transcript

The whole conversation, searchable

130 segments

Auto-generated captions, lightly cleaned. Click a timestamp to open that moment on YouTube.