Episode 98 · Deep tech · 57 min

Using deep tech is not creating it

Seafund has cut direct-to-consumer out of its mandate on purpose and pointed roughly ₹200 crore at what India is still thin on: SaaS with real science in it, rocket teams, vehicle control units, chip design. The test is what its partner calls the colour of money — $10,000 from two projects is a services business, $500 a month from twenty customers is a product — and the warning is that 80 to 90 per cent of Indian companies still use deep tech rather than build it.

NB
Narendra Bhandari
Partner, Seafund · with Vishal Krishna
Using deep tech is not creating it — episode thumbnail
57:14
Said in this episode
▶ 29:51
₹200 cr + ₹50 cr
Fund II target, with green shoe
Filed as a Category II AIF at about ₹200 crore with a ₹50 crore green shoe option — which he converts on air to roughly $24 million, going up to $30 million.
▶ 11:30
80–90%
Indian companies using deep tech rather than building it
The split named in conversation: most are applying an existing model with some customisation and have not built the underlying layer, held back by datasets, hardware and training infrastructure.
▶ 42:54
45–48%
Fund I returns over four years
Quoted as 45 per cent plus, close to 48, over the last four years; the captions garble the measure, and the evidence he offers is that the state-government LP re-upped into Fund II.
▶ 7:42
$300bn
Indian software exports, and the wrong revenue shape
Described as a $200 billion services industry now reaching or crossing $300 billion — project revenue, which is the base SaaS and deep-tech product revenue has to be carved out of.
▶ 39:12
~50%
Battery share of an EV's cost
Batteries are about half the cost of the vehicle, which is why pre-owned packs and day rentals matter more to a logistics operator than the elegance of a swap mechanism.
▶ 23:09
7 km
Reach of an indigenised long-distance camera
A team he met demonstrated photographs taken 7 km away from a rooftop — one of several Indian space and optics companies he says are already well beyond paper.
The brief

The argument in sixty seconds

Bhandari's argument is that India has confused using deep tech with creating it. Most Indian companies — 80 to 90 per cent, on the split named here — are applying somebody else's model, wrapping a ChatGPT call in something that makes a problem easy, while the underlying layer stays foreign; he blames datasets, hardware and large-scale training infrastructure rather than talent, and expects India to leapfrog once those ease. Seafund's answer is a mandate with a hole deliberately cut in it: no direct-to-consumer, a conscious choice given a small fund and partners who describe their consumer instincts as close to non-existent. What is left is B2B, and the test he keeps returning to is the colour of money. Ten thousand dollars from two project customers is a services business whose multiplier is people and hours; five hundred dollars a month from twenty customers is a product that scales without hiring — and that pattern is itself the moat, though he concedes every high wall eventually meets a taller ladder, so the real question is whether you can build, monetise and move on first. From there the cheques go where India is thin: five rocket teams met in six to nine months, an indigenised camera shooting 7 km from a rooftop, a mid-mile logistics drone priced against what a man on a bike would charge for the same fifty kilometres, a vehicle control unit he calls the CPU of an EV, and chip design as the capability India should spotlight instead of fabs. Fund I reported returns of 45 to 48 per cent over four years and its state-government LP came back for Fund II — his evidence that patient capital for hard technology now exists here. The stakes: if the next wave of models and silicon is only consumed in India, the value accrues somewhere else.

Worth your time if you are

Deep-tech founders raising a first institutional cheque
SaaS founders still billing by the project
Chip engineers weighing a fabless startup
EV and battery operators arguing swap versus fast charge
State-government funds thinking about becoming LPs
Episode map

Where the conversation travels

Every block is a chapter, coloured by what it's about. Click any of it to jump straight to that minute on YouTube.

01Cold open: the fund that backs deep tech 0:00 Vishal sets up a fund whose name sounds marine but isn't — about 13 investments in Fund I, five deals so far in Fund II, all aimed at companies building genuinely difficult technology. 02Intel in 1998, and selling email to banks 1:32 A software engineer building EDA tools talks his wife into moving to India when Intel had twenty-odd people in Bangalore, runs campaigns persuading banks and government that email raises productivity without costing jobs, then drifts into tech diligence for what wasn't yet called Intel Capital — eight or nine deals, roughly five of which went on to IPO. 03Why software counts as deep tech 5:35 After the Microsoft and Azure years, the thesis sharpens: India's $200 billion services industry now crossing $300 billion sells projects, while SaaS sells a product on a subscription — and the deep tech is not implementing a workflow but modelling the customer's customer, deciding who to lend to and at what score. 04Using AI is not building it; the ATM lesson 10:09 Indian companies overwhelmingly apply AI rather than build the underlying layer, constrained by datasets, hardware and training infrastructure — and against the jobs panic he replays the teller, the ATM and the automated exchange, industries that were supposed to die and instead spun off hundreds of billions in new value. 05The colour of money 15:11 The central test: $10,000 from two project customers is a services business whose multiplier is people and hours, while $500 a month from twenty customers signals the ability to scale non-linearly — and the moat is a wall you must monetise before someone builds a taller ladder. 06No direct-to-consumer, on purpose 17:06 All the partners agreed to stay out of D2C — fund size plus an honest admission that their consumer instincts are limited — leaving the B2B and innovation gap, where India still has very few billion-dollar deep-tech exits and where governance can no longer be waved away as a startup excuse. 07Eyes in the sky, and five rocket teams 19:23 Satellites become commodities over ten to fifteen years as private 5G, encryption and maritime navigation each want their own eye in the sky; after Aero India he has met at least five rocket teams, beam-forming companies and an optics team shooting 7 km from a rooftop — all past paper, and all facing the propulsion-plus-avionics scale question. 08The digital highway, and a kid in the candy store 24:25 Aadhaar, UPI, the health and logistics stacks and Bhashini are read as India's equivalent of the American interstate system, built with transparency in the DNA — and two men discover their wallets are empty in rural Karnataka while founders now arrive pitching a path to revenue rather than a valuation alone. 09Fund two, and a drone doing the mid mile 29:51 Fund II is a Category II AIF filed at ₹200 crore with a ₹50 crore green shoe — about $24 million rising to $30 million — with five deals done, several in EV and logistics, including a drone company whose economics he tests against what a man on a bike would charge for the same fifty kilometres. 10Fast charging over swapping; batteries as capital 32:58 The fund backs fast charging and range over consumer swapping, allowing swap only where commercial-vehicle scale justifies the capital, real estate and security cost; OEMs going full-stack will eventually buy vehicle control units — the CPU of a machine that is really batteries, GPS, wheels and software — while batteries at roughly half the vehicle cost push logistics operators toward pre-owned packs and daily rentals. 11Gen AI has to earn its place in the workflow 40:29 Every large company is using generative AI and almost none can say where it matters in their processes — the quick wins go to teams that fit models into a customer's workflow and domain, from legal flow to logistics prediction to digital twins of plants and machinery. 12A state government as limited partner 42:40 One of the fund's larger LPs is a state government that backed Fund I, saw returns quoted at 45 per cent plus over four years and came back for Fund II — with at least one other state now in, and capital arriving as direct investment, fund-of-funds money and policy that simply lets startups compete. 13Operators writing pre-Series A cheques 45:40 Space, semiconductors and clean tech are where the partners — all operators, one a former CEO — are spending time, writing $300,000 to $1 million pre-Series A cheques with about 40 per cent of the fund reserved for follow-ons and a portfolio he caps at roughly twenty. 14AI that aids the patient, then bills the hospital 47:25 Vishal's own experience with AI-guided supplements and skin treatment becomes the test case: the keyword is aid, and once outcomes improve enough that a consumer pays, a hospital eventually buys too — the route by which a portfolio company mapping the patient journey turns better outcomes into B2B revenue, under Andy Grove's old e-business ultimatum restated for AI. 15Why everyone suddenly wants their own chip 50:30 Amazon and Apple went custom for specialised needs, ecosystem control and cost, and the fabless route is now open to Indian founders: senior GCC talent stepping out, RISC-V and Arm cores to build on, OSATs arriving — but the capability he wants spotlit is design, in a market where a listed-bound EV player is doing its own silicon. 16Golf, white papers and the summary that lied 55:00 He has taken up golf without deciding whether it counts as unwinding, reads diversely from scriptures to finance, prefers white papers to books — and uses AI summaries only to pique interest, because he has caught them being wrong.
Takeaways

Ideas to carry out of this hour

01

Using deep tech and creating deep tech are different businesses

Wrapping an existing model so a customer's problem becomes easy is using deep tech; producing a new language model — or an SLM, or whatever form comes next — is creating it. On the split named in this conversation, 80 to 90 per cent of Indian companies sit on the using side, doing customisation at most and never touching the underlying layer. He does not read that as a talent verdict: the binding constraints are datasets, hardware availability and large-scale training infrastructure, where global companies had a head start. Ease those and he expects India to leapfrog, the way it has before.

02

The colour of money, not the amount, tells you what you own

Two customers paying $10,000 for a completed project is a services business: the multiplier is people times time, and the only knobs are dollars per hour and where you sit in the value chain. Twenty customers paying $500 a month is the same revenue with a different colour — a signal that the business can scale without a proportionate hire. That colour is also the moat, though he is unsentimental about moats: build a high wall and someone finds a taller ladder, so the question is whether you can execute, monetise and move on before they do.

03

Ruling out consumer is a thesis, not a blind spot

All three GPs agreed Seafund would not do direct-to-consumer, for two stated reasons: the fund is small, and their own ability to read consumer models is, in his words, extremely limited and maybe non-existent. He is complimentary about the funds that do it well and unapologetic about staying out. The corollary is that B2B and innovation are wide open — India has produced very few billion-dollar deep-tech exits, and the one he can name off the top of his head is ABB buying Numocity.

04

Indian space is past the paper stage, and short on scale

In six to nine months, largely off the back of Aero India, he has personally met at least five teams building or trying to build rockets, plus beam-forming companies and an optics team demonstrating photographs taken 7 km away from a rooftop. Nothing he has seen is a slide deck: the rocket companies have cryogenic test footage from their own hangars. The VC question is not whether the technology works but whether a team that can do propulsion can also staff avionics — and whether India launches these payloads itself or ships them to Florida.

05

Fast charging wins the consumer, swapping survives at commercial scale

The fund's position is that fast charging plus range is the long-term answer, and it is not a fan of traditional swapping for two- and three-wheelers once you price the capital cost, Indian real estate and securing the infrastructure. Its one swap investment is deliberately narrow: battery swap in commercial vehicles, at a scale that makes the economics work. Behind both sits a working-capital argument — batteries are roughly half the vehicle cost, so pre-owned packs and daily rentals are how a fruit-seller-style operator keeps starting the day with capital intact.

06

An EV is a software platform, so the value moves to the control unit

Shifting gears was once a hand and a linkage, then software; in an EV, battery, motor, acceleration, cell health, charging input and discharge are all software decisions, and the vehicle is — his phrase — batteries, GPS and wheels. Today's OEMs build the whole stack in house for good early reasons, but at scale they will buy from specialists, and the piece he wants to own is the vehicle control unit: the VCU is to an EV what the CPU is to a PC. It is also platform-agnostic, selling into two-wheelers, three-wheelers, four-wheelers and warehouse powertrains alike.

07

The chip opportunity in India is design, not fabrication

Amazon and Apple went custom because general-purpose silicon stopped fitting specialised needs, and because owning the chip means owning cost, ecosystem and destiny. What makes that repeatable in India is the fabless model: senior talent stepping out of global capability centres, RISC-V and Arm cores available to build on, and OSATs now arriving. His frustration is where the national conversation points — fabs get the headlines while he wants the spotlight on design capability, plus tools and testing. He dates the first Indian attempt at this to companies around 2005 that were simply too early.

08

A state government turned out to be the patient LP deep tech needed

One of the fund's larger limited partners across both funds is a state government, which explicitly told them to go for long-term investments. It re-upped into Fund II after Fund I returns he quotes as 45 per cent plus, close to 48, over four years — and at least one other state has since come in a big way. His broader point is that government capital now arrives in several shapes: direct investment, fund-of-funds money, procurement access and policy that gives startups a chance to compete without handing them an unfair advantage.

The numbers, drawn

What the episode measures

Every figure below was said on air — timestamps included, caveats kept.

Conversation share

portion of the hour spent on each theme
Venture capital · 24%Deep tech & hardware · 22%AI & machine learning · 14%Mobility & EV · 12%SaaS & enterprise · 11%India macro · 8%
Venture capital24%
Deep tech & hardware22%
AI & machine learning14%
Mobility & EV12%
SaaS & enterprise11%
India macro8%
Computed from the chapter map of this episode.

Two funds, and the pace of deals

investments
Fund I (deployed)13Fund II (so far)5Fund II (stated ceil20
As stated in conversation: about 13 investments in Fund I and five deals so far in Fund II; asked whether the pace would be 20 to 30, he answered 'less than 20, 20-ish', so the ceiling here is his number, not a target date.▶ 0:29

Fund II, in dollars

$ million
Filed size24With green shoe30
A Category II AIF filed at roughly ₹200 crore with a ₹50 crore green shoe option, which he converted on air to about $24 million rising to $30 million.▶ 29:51
Worth keeping

Lines that stay

Me using ChatGPT-4 to solve a problem and making it really easy for somebody — that is using deep tech. Me coming up with a brand new language model is creating deep tech.

— Narendra Bhandari ▶ 11:13

You can always build a high wall, and somebody will figure out a tall enough ladder. Then you build a higher wall, and somebody builds a taller ladder. It's just a matter of time — can you execute, build the wall, monetise and move on?

— Narendra Bhandari ▶ 15:42

If twenty customers are paying you $500 a month, that colour of money indicates you have the potential to scale without humans.

— Narendra Bhandari ▶ 16:33

An EV is really a software platform. It is batteries and GPS and wheels.

— Narendra Bhandari ▶ 35:40

Almost 25 years ago Andy Grove said that in five years every business will be an e-business, or it will not remain a business. Over the next five to seven years, if you're not using AI tools to improve your efficiency, somebody else will do it faster, better, cheaper.

— Narendra Bhandari ▶ 50:05
Clips that travel

Short on time? Start here

SaaS founders still billing by the project

The colour of money, and the taller ladder

The fund's whole filter in four minutes: $10,000 from two projects versus $500 a month from twenty, why that is the moat, and why Seafund refuses consumer.

15:11 → 19:23 · 4 min ▶ Watch clip
Space and drone teams hunting a first cheque

Eyes in the sky, and five rocket teams

What an investor actually saw after Aero India — cryogenic test footage, beam forming, 7 km rooftop optics — and the propulsion-versus-avionics question that decides who gets funded.

19:23 → 24:25 · 5 min ▶ Watch clip
EV and battery operators arguing swap versus fast charge

Fast charging, swapping, and the EV as software

The unit-economics case against consumer battery swapping in India, and why the vehicle control unit is where an EV's value quietly relocates.

32:58 → 38:38 · 6 min ▶ Watch clip
LPs and policy people designing startup capital

The state government that came back for fund two

A rare on-record look at government money as an LP — the returns quoted, the re-up, and the four shapes public capital now takes.

42:26 → 45:40 · 3 min ▶ Watch clip
Chip engineers weighing a fabless startup

Why everyone suddenly wants their own chip

From Amazon and Apple's specialised silicon to GCC talent stepping out with RISC-V cores — and the argument that India should spotlight design, not fabs.

50:30 → 55:00 · 4 min ▶ Watch clip
Glossary

The jargon, unpacked

Colour of money
His shorthand for the shape of a company's revenue rather than its size — project fees billed against people and hours versus recurring subscription revenue that can grow without proportionate hiring.
Category II AIF
The SEBI licence class most Indian venture and private-equity funds register under, and the structure Seafund's second fund is filed as.
Green shoe option
A clause letting a fund accept commitments above its stated target — here an extra ₹50 crore on top of a ₹200 crore filing.
Vehicle control unit (VCU)
The central controller that manages battery, motor, charging and discharge in an electric vehicle — in his analogy, what the CPU is to a PC.
Fabless
Designing chips without owning a fabrication plant: the design is done locally and shipped to a foundry such as Taiwan's for manufacture.
OSAT
Outsourced Semiconductor Assembly and Test — the packaging and testing step after fabrication, and the first part of the chip supply chain now appearing in India.
Mid mile
The leg of logistics between a large warehouse and a smaller hub — not last-mile delivery to a home; the segment his drone-logistics investment serves with medicines, parts and blood samples.
Bhashini
India's government-backed language-technology initiative, cited alongside Aadhaar, UPI and the health and logistics stacks as population-scale digital infrastructure.
Connections

If this resonated, go here next

Full transcript

The whole conversation, searchable

218 segments

Auto-generated captions, lightly cleaned. Click a timestamp to open that moment on YouTube.